Interview by: Mirza Abaz
Source: Stav.ba
The monograph "Child Victims of War 1991-1995" was published by the Republic Center for Research on War, War Crimes and Search for Missing Persons of the Republic of Serbia, whose primary goal is to point out the senselessness of war, which leaves the greatest consequences for the most vulnerable - children. , said the director of this center, Milorad Kojić. The table in this book contains the first and last names, father's name, date and municipality of birth and date and municipality of death of children of Serbian nationality who, as it was planned to present, were killed by members of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It did not take long for numerous manipulations of data and figures to be discovered. Several children of Serbian nationality who were killed by the RS Army during the siege of Sarajevo in the smaller Bosnia and Herzegovina. they were presented to the entity as Serbian children killed by the ARBiH. Later, the "Sniper Alley" website added to that list the names of five more children - Marko Lukić, Damir Dodik, Igor Malešević, Mirjana Malešević, Vitomir Soknić - who are also included in the publication "Children of War Victims 1991-1995", and in fact minor victims of the siege of our capital. That list was later further expanded by the author of the "Sniper Alley" project, Džemil Hodžić. It should be noted that the latest machinations from this entity come immediately after the RS authorities, together with representatives of the authorities from the Republic of Serbia, presented the Bosniak refugees from Žepa as Serbian victims exiled during the "Storm" action in the Republic of Croatia.
dr. Muamer Džananović, senior research associate at the Institute for Research of Crimes Against Humanity and International Law of the University of Sarajevo, after this monograph was published, reacted with an open letter on social networks in which he indicated that in addition to the names of the murdered children who were killed by members of the VRS during siege of Sarajevo, there are more "mistakes" in this book. As he underlined, only a cursory review of this publication can clearly discern that the list contains a significant number of children killed and wounded as a result of the actions of the VRS in other areas of our country. Muamer Džananović is our interlocutor in this issue of Stava, with whom we discussed a new attempt at historical revisionism coming from the Rs entity, but we also touched on other topics. The book "Emergence of the Republika Srpska: From Regionalization to Strategic Goals (1991-1992)" co-authored by Hikmet Karčić, Jasmin Medic and Muamer Džananović, who is one of the co-authors and co-editors of the "Report on Denying the Genocide in Srebrenica 2023", was recently published. and which recorded 90 cases of denial of the genocide in Srebrenica in the period from May 2022 to May 2023, and we also discussed the new beheading of former commanders and members of the ARBiH, who are again being charged with war crimes against victims of Serbian nationality in Jošanica near Foča in December 1992.
By the way, Muamer Džananović earned his master's degree and doctorate at the University of Sarajevo on topics in the field of genocide and war crimes. He is currently employed and elected as a senior research associate at the UNSA Institute for Research on Crimes against Humanity and International Law and is the author of several books, scientific papers, exhibitions and publications on genocide and war crimes. He participated in the implementation of numerous scientific projects. He reviewed and edited several books and proceedings.
STAV: You recently pointed out that in the list of murdered children in the publication "Children of War Victims 1991-1995", published by the Republican Center for Research on War, War Crimes and the Search for Missing Persons, in addition to the names of the murdered children who were killed by members of the VRS during siege of Sarajevo has more "mistakes". What are the key mistakes?
DŽANANOVIĆ: First of all, I want to emphasize that in the scientific research of war, war crimes, genocide, the most complex and sensitive part of the realization of the research is the one related to obtaining data and determining the identity of the victims, other data related to the victims, and related to the circumstances of the crime. There are many reasons why this is so and you can never say that you have determined the final number of victims. However, such research and their results to which your question refers, even by a cursory review of the list of killed and wounded children only for the area of Sarajevo, are a clear indication to anyone who survived the siege of Sarajevo that these are irrelevant, tendentious, quasi-scientific research. As such, they are part of broader projects that have been worked on for a long time, the ultimate goal of which is the relativization of history, to put it simply.
STAV: A few days ago, you stated that even a cursory examination of this publication shows that it is obviously a significant percentage of children who were killed or wounded by members of the VRS, and who are on the lists and in the mentioned publication with the aim of showing that they they were killed by members of the ARBiH. How important is it to mention, in addition to Sarajevo, other areas where various manipulations are also carried out?
DŽANANOVIĆ: It is certainly important that we do not ignore any crime because children and civilians are killed, wounded and tortured all over the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the moment of my reaction, the author of the "Sniper Alley" project, Džemil Hodžić, who actually identified this problem earlier, announced that six children killed in the siege were on those lists. Already today, when we are talking, he announced that it is about eleven children. And that's only for Sarajevo. All of us who survived the siege of Sarajevo know very well which civilian locations are and who fired shells at them. It is noticeable, especially in the areas of the besieged cities, that children who have the appropriate name and surname for the authors of this project were killed, which was enough to put them on the list in order to present them as victims of the ARBiH. I reacted with a concrete example for the Goražde area under siege, where a child of Serbian nationality was killed in June 1993 by the VRS. The mother of that child was killed by the same shell, and another civilian was wounded and killed.
In the context of the mentioned project, I want to emphasize and remind that we are actually talking about children who are victims of the Great Serbian project, victims of crimes, victims of the siege of Sarajevo. Now someone out of political interest puts them on the necessary lists and actually sees them only as a number and nothing more than that. Not to think about the murdered children as children, not to think about their parents, brothers, sisters, all those who are human and understand that pain and whose deepest wounds you touch again in this way... This is something that in relativizing the crime to such a callous way we have not witnessed so far and it is below the lowest level. At the moment I don't have an adequate term to describe it.
STAV: How many children did members of the VRS kill outside of Sarajevo? You have particularly good statistics, if I'm not mistaken, for the Podrinje region, especially Goražde?
DŽANANOVIĆ: I was involved in more detail in researching and determining the identity and circumstances of the crime for the killed and wounded children in the siege of Goražde. The results of the research were published in the form of a book. I am in the process of finalizing the publication of the results of scientific research for the area of Zvornik. To a certain extent, through research, I certainly touched Srebrenica, other Podrinja municipalities, but also Tešnja, Maglaj and some other areas. During the siege of Goražde, I determined the identities and circumstances of the crime for 120 children killed during the siege, which was very demanding. Also, using primarily primary sources, I published data on 428 wounded children during the siege. In the future I will publish a revised version of the book. What is the fact and conclusion from my research, as well as that of other colleagues for some other municipalities and regions, that is, from the mass, brutality and ferocity of those crimes, is that children were killed en masse, but also injured, especially in cities under siege, starved, in fact with the civilian population forcibly kept in inhumane conditions with the daily threat of being killed. In the areas that fell under the control of the Serbian army, even children experienced the fate of other civilians. Children were killed, tortured, imprisoned in camps, raped, etc.
STAV: You also touched on broader projects that are being worked on for a long time, and whose goal is to relativize history. What did you mean? Who orders them, finances them?
DŽANANOVIĆ: We are witnessing the attitude and policy of the ruling structures, but also a good part of the opposition structures in Bosnia and Herzegovina. entity RS and the Republic of Serbia when it comes to these topics. They deny the genocide in various ways, and the highlight is that at certain commemorations on stages, war criminals were judged side by side with them. In fact, there are many things that support the fact that in many fields, including this one, they consistently follow the policy that led to aggression and genocide. I believe that the genocide and crimes committed during the aggression against RBiH were designed, organized and carried out by the political elites and that they are actually state projects, so also these projects of relativizing history, denying genocide and crimes are part of that strategy which is created at the highest levels. political levels. Evidence for this is certainly the public attitudes of political leaders in RS and Serbia. What is visible is that the denial of the genocide has become deeply rooted in the key institutions within that entity and within Serbia, and that it is supported by the wider masses. I remind you that a few years ago the Government of RS commissioned research and formed commissions, one to investigate the "suffering of all peoples in the Srebrenica region in the period 1992-1995." year", and the other for the "suffering of Serbs in Sarajevo in the period 1991-1995", the results of which are completely irrelevant.
In the report that refers to the "suffering of Serbs in Sarajevo", the thesis that has been presented for thirty years, since the day when Serbian forces committed crimes against civilians during the siege, is essentially presented. It accuses "Muslim forces" of killing civilians at the Markale market and other locations in Sarajevo, at the Tuzla Gate, etc. That narrative prepared at the time of the crime is something that was insisted upon during the defense of convicted criminals in The Hague and is something that is not abandoned even today.
STAV: How is it possible to fight against such manipulations of data that we have witnessed intensively in the last few days?
DŽANANOVIĆ: I think that this example shows in which direction the struggle of those for whom the truth is the only guide should go. I believe that science and scientific research are something that we should primarily strive for. So many books, papers and various other publications have been written about the siege of Sarajevo, and only a few researchers and scientists could oppose concrete facts. Scientific research is long-term, requiring a lot of enthusiasm, dedication and investment, which objectively is not enough. What I want to emphasize is the fact that in addition to Džemil Hodžić and certainly the family and relatives of the victims, my colleagues from the Institute, Dr. Zilha Mastalić-Košuta and others. Merisa Karović-Babić. They contrasted these quasi-scientific researches with the results of their individual and joint long-term scientific researches, which they came up with and published in the form of books and papers and on which they continue to work tirelessly. I think that more should be invested in such scientific, primarily empirical projects. Not only because of opposing those manipulations, but because it is also the primary task of society as a whole. Unfortunately, we must be aware that numerous individual and mass crimes have not and will never be prosecuted and that many will not be adequately preserved from oblivion. Therefore, it is our obligation to investigate them on scientific grounds and adequately preserve them from oblivion and as a warning to current and future generations, but primarily to fulfill our obligation towards those against whom crimes were committed.
STAV: Why do the authorities in the smaller BiH entity they are doing this right now? Do they have some practical reason?
DŽANANOVIĆ: I think that the authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina they have been doing this to the Rs entity for many years, and now it is more seriously recognized by the public. I gave my opinion on who creates these things. It is about the realization of a large-state, Greater Serbia long-term strategy in numerous fields. I invite you and myself, and all those who will read the interview, to re-read parts of the "Second Memorandum" of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, which was created in 2011 and leaked to the public. It is only in that document that it is written what kind of relationship Serbia and the government in Rs will have with regard to the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, its institutions, and its future. Constant denial of the state of BiH, Bosniaks as a people, denial of genocide, rigging of court proceedings, especially against members of the ARBiH, are some of the things written in that document. I stick to the topic of our conversation, but it is important to mention that action is being directed in other fields as well, such as relations with the international community and lobbying, culture, language, etc. On the other hand, we have the disunity of the pro-Bosnian intellectual elite, which even these days is further stretching the minds of the already deeply divided patriotically oriented part of the BiH population. We do not have a long-term national, state strategy in any field. I would say that even in this field, which is the topic of our conversation, we oppose and actually "breathe" on the enthusiasm of individuals.
STAV: The book "Emergence of Republika Srpska: From Regionalization to Strategic Goals (1991-1992)" co-authored by Hikmet Karčić, Jasmin Medić and Vas was recently published. Among other things, one of the theses in this book is that Serbian nationalism basically implies the occupation of those territories where the Serbian people live. How is it possible that the VRS also targeted Serbs in Sarajevo and other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Was anything else their heresy except that they did not choose to join the terror of their fellow citizens?
DŽANANOVIĆ: The continuity of Serbian nationalism and the idea of creating a greater Serbia goes much deeper into the past. It is precisely for this reason that we have made an introduction and an overview of some of the most important historical events that accompany the idea of creating a great Serbia and its consequences. From its conception until the beginning of the nineties, that idea implied the incorporation of significant parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina into the Greater Serbian state. Even today, they do not give up on it. The primary motive of us authors was to present to the domestic and international public how it actually happened on January 9, 1992 and the declaration of the so-called Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is completely wrong to observe "9. January" as something isolated and as an individual thing that has no flow before and after it. We felt the need to explain the phenomenon of origin, that is, the origin of the idea and the declaration of an unconstitutional and illegal creation. We have already spoken in public, but it is important to repeat that we considered it important for the subject of the book to offer an insight into the period of final preparations for the operationalization of genocide and other crimes against humanity, which were made official on May 12, 1992, when at the 16th session " Assembly of the Serbian people in BiH" adopted "Strategic goals of the Serbian people in BiH". For the purposes of research, we analyzed all the most important available decisions of the Serbian political leadership, from the formation of communities of municipalities, i.e. autonomous regions, the preparation and holding of plebiscites, parallelism in the form of the unilateral declaration of the so-called Assembly of the Serbian people, the so-called Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Army, etc. In the work, on the basis of primary archival material, we deal in detail with the long-term process of transformation and renaming of political, military and civil structures and putting them into the function of realizing the criminal plan. Behind the realization of the "strategic goals" stood a huge bureaucratic machinery with an ideological basis with the aim of removing other peoples from their hearths. I think that in the end we managed to explain the essence of the so-called self-proclamation. Serbian Republic, i.e. the so-called of Rs.
It is important to emphasize, and it can be seen from numerous documents and intercepted conversations, that Karadžić and his collaborators wanted to form a creation where only Serbs would ultimately live, and with them possibly minorities in a negligibly small percentage. The fact that the decisions they made in 1991 or 1992 were declared unconstitutional by the Constitutional Court ultimately meant nothing on the ground. There are many similarities with today's events. In this regard, I believe that the book can serve today's political pro-Bosnian representatives and representatives of other institutions to learn a lesson and by no means underestimate secessionist announcements and unconstitutional actions in various fields.
STAV: During the work on this book, hundreds of thousands of different documents of the then structures of Rs. How did the collection of material and the actual work on the book go?
DŽANANOVIĆ: Colleagues dr. Jasmin Medić and others. Hikmet Karčić and I have been dealing with these topics for many years. We incorporated our previous knowledge and did additional research. Our work colleague dr. Ermin Kuka, as the promoter of the book in Foča, pointed out a fact a few days ago that best describes the work of writing this work. He stated that he witnessed day and night work on this book and sometimes heated and serious discussions. So far, in the short time since the publication of the book, we have had a large number of promotions, and I would like to supplement the previous one in some way, and ultimately describe the cooperation of the three co-authors, and to a certain extent the state of our nation and society as a whole. Namely, those present at all the promotions emphasize that they are particularly glad that young people wrote this work and they are really delighted that three people without any interests cooperate and contribute to society. Our dedicated work, collegial and friendly relationship is perhaps a guide to other colleagues in this and other fields in which direction our work and actions should go. And I want to emphasize that this is not our only joint project that we have realized, we will work on new ones in the future.
STAV: To what extent does the current political moment favor Serbian nationalism and its strategic goals and the eventual realization of centuries-old great-state goals?
DŽANANOVIĆ: I assume that your question is also directed towards global trends which are important and which inevitably concern the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the relations of world political and military forces towards the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. There are many important topics that require deeper analysis, such as Russia's aggression against Ukraine and Ukraine's resistance, generally Russian influence in the Western Balkans, which is strong, the popularization of right-wing forces in Europe, the primary interests and focus of the USA, global trends and the interests of world powers in general, the position of China, Türkiye etc. These are all important topics and I believe that we should certainly follow global trends and look for ourselves in them and try to position the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina and try to realize our interests.
However, we must not forget that whenever we relied and believed that someone from the outside would help us, that's when we suffered the most. The biggest crimes during the aggression were committed before the eyes of the whole world. For example, world powers that could have stopped the genocidal process focused on how to come up with a euphemism and not use the term genocide in their reports and public space. Objectively, any interests of our eastern or western neighbors will be realized here to the extent that the pro-Bosnian forces are disunited and weak. The state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, like any other state, is only as strong as its institutions. Institutions are strong and will be strong when they are led and made up of the most dedicated, responsible and best personnel. Those who take an oath to the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and who put the smallest possible personal and party interests before national, patriotic ones, have often participated in the weakening of our institutions and are participating.
STAV: Also, for the third year in a row, the Srebrenica Memorial Center, Potočari publishes the research document "Report on denial of genocide in Srebrenica 2023", which recorded 90 cases of denial of genocide in Srebrenica in the period from May 2022 to May 2023. You are one of the authors and editors of this report. It is interesting that the new face on this list is Zoran Milanović. What does that indicate?
DŽANANOVIĆ: The report on genocide denial in Srebrenica in 2023 is based on monitoring and analysis of the representation of genocide denial. In the context of genocide denial and relativization, you are right, the new name appearing on the list of genocide deniers is Zoran Milanović, the president of the Republic of Croatia. According to research, it is noted that Milanović is increasingly involved in this practice, which represents a key change compared to previous reports. His appearance as a denier of genocide and relativizer is significant because of his high political position and the influence he has as president of Croatia. Genocide denial and relativization are harmful practices aimed at diminishing the character of the crime and prolonging the painful consequences of genocide. In addition, this way the rights of the victims are denied and causes further polarization between communities. Therefore, it is important that such statements and attitudes are carefully monitored, analyzed and publicly condemned in order, among other things, to preserve the truth.
STAV: When you agreed to be part of the author and editorial team that will work on the Report, were you aware that you would be attacked, that you would be threatened?
DŽANANOVIĆ: First of all, I believe that my work has been recognized by the leadership of the Memorial Center, and I thank you for the invitation and the opportunity to collaborate. I have been given the exceptional honor of personally contributing to the work of the Srebrenica Memorial Center, Potočari, which works on historically important projects.
To tell you the truth, I don't think about those kinds of consequences, nor do I fear them. If it were otherwise, I would not have agreed to be part of this important project and part of this team. Why should we be afraid to write and present the truth? The fact is that the authors who live and reside in the areas of Srebrenica and Rs are primarily called out and they are under special attack. I don't think it's a coincidence. Bosniaks, as well as Croats living in RS, are under primary attack in various ways, from those who, even in peace, continue the continuity of "breaking" the state and society with other methods, various forms of pressure, discrimination and segregation. And no one protects them, they don't have any protection. The authors or team members did not include Milanović, Dodik and the others in the Report at their own discretion and because they needed media attention. Genocide deniers put themselves on those lists. I would like to use the opportunity to emphasize here that I think it is important that finally those who follow or believe in the correct path of the ideology that led to aggression and genocide begin to examine their own views on the events that took place. To, as Jaspers put it, "self-illuminate". It is important that after that the ideology of evil is massively and completely rejected, the court verdicts and scientifically established facts about the crimes committed in the name of the ideology of evil are accepted and recognized, which actually represents the only way to build peace and prosperity in the region and Bosnia and Herzegovina. society and the state.
STAV: What does the fact that the Prosecutor's Office of Bosnia and Herzegovina did not file a single indictment against deniers of genocide and other crimes and glorifiers of war criminals tell us?
DŽANANOVIĆ: Since the amendment of the Criminal Code of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there has been no lack of direct denials of genocide, but it is noticeable that they occur on a reduced scale within Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially in public discourse. In the report, we presented that 90 cases of genocide denial were recorded, and that the year before the publication of this year's results, as many as 693 cases of genocide denial were recorded. More intensive drawing of murals, distribution of leaflets, photographs and other similar ways of glorifying and celebrating convicted war criminals come to the fore. From the middle of 2021, when the Law entered into force, until the end of May 2023, the Prosecutor's Office of Bosnia and Herzegovina issued a total of 38 orders on non-investigation of criminal charges for denial of genocide. I believe that this practice must stop and that such (in)work by the Prosecutor's Office, if it continues, will lead to public denials intensifying again and actually encouraging genocide deniers and those who glorify war criminals.
STAV: On the other hand, a few days ago, the team of prosecutors of the Special Department for War Crimes filed an indictment against 13 persons, former commanders and members of the ARBiH, who are accused of war crimes against victims of Serbian nationality in the town of Jošanica near Foča in December 1992.
DŽANANOVIĆ: The fact is that members of the ARBiH who defended Goražde are again on the docks. I dealt with the crimes during the siege in more detail and researched the topic of crimes against children, and I am currently working on a complex scientific project concerning the siege and defense of Goražde, with a focus on the crimes committed. I want to emphasize that from the scale and mass of the crimes committed, it can be concluded that the crimes committed against civilians during the siege of Goražde, committed in the period when Goražde also had the status of a UN safe zone, represent one of the symbols of the crimes against civilians during the aggression against RBiH 1992-1995 . years. To this day, no one has been held accountable for the deliberate execution of crimes against several tens of thousands of civilians who, due to the imposed conditions of the siege, were practically surviving in a kind of deliberately organized "concentration" camp. The civilian population lived in a complete environment in a constant struggle for biological survival. The aggressor deliberately exhausted the population by leaving it without electricity, water, food, basic medicines, adequate treatment, which was supposed to accelerate the biological extermination of the dominant ethnic group in this area. During that period, all civilian facilities, including the war hospital, were shelled, and civilians were targeted and killed every day, wounded and starved to death, froze to death and died in other ways due to the harsh conditions imposed on them.
We support that everyone should be held accountable for the crime committed regardless of its dimensions and regardless of the perpetrator's national, religious or any other affiliation. However, the paradox is that, when it comes to Goražde, the focus of investigative bodies and prosecution offices is not numerous mass crimes committed against values protected by international law and against civilians as protected persons. There is no doubt that the indictments brought in these cases are in a huge imbalance in relation to the committed acts of war crimes committed during the period of aggression against this region and the city of Goražde. In view of the above, and bearing in mind the fact that to date, I think over 40 members of the ARBiH, defenders of Goražde, have been indicted and sentenced to 89 years in prison, and that they are still being interrogated and detained "every day", it is concluded that the "unclear" strategy of the judicial authorities, which are focused on possibly committed crimes by members of the ARBiH. Generally speaking, we must not forget Sarajevo, the "Dobrovoljačka" case and numerous other cases against commanders and members of the ARBiH. I remind you that for the crimes in the siege of Sarajevo, in the sieges of numerous other cities and areas, we have not filed a single indictment for committed mass crimes. I mentioned "Memorandum 2" and I believe and I am entitled to the view that all this is a consistent implementation of what is written there. The question is who leads the institutions and who manages these processes. How and why did we get there? Enough of those who supposedly put the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina first, and I mentioned that, I think they also have significant responsibilities in all of this.
STAV: How important is the existence of an institution like the UNSA Institute for Research on Crimes against Humanity and International Law? And what other projects are you currently working on?
DŽANANOVIĆ: I see the UNSA Institute for Research on Crimes against Humanity and International Law as an institution of national importance, which may sometimes not receive adequate attention. Not enough is invested in empirical scientific work. I think that much more should be invested in the existence, strengthening of personnel, and a clearly defined development strategy, goals and tasks.
We have already mentioned some of the activities, but in fact, through my scientific research work, I also deal with numerous other topics. I also cooperate with institutions in Bosnia and Herzegovina and abroad. I am involved in numerous scientific projects of social importance, and the scientific and general public will be familiar with the final results. I would like to point out that a book will soon be published that talks about the crimes in the area of Zvornik in 1992-1995. years. It is a co-authored work with dr. Elvedin Mulagić, which is the result of many years of primarily empirical research. We have acquired and analyzed a really large fund of primary sources. Among other things, for the purposes of research, we spent a lot of time in the field, recorded the statements of the surviving victims, filled out a questionnaire for all those killed, etc. Among others, I would like to point out that I am in the phase of working on a long-term scientific research project on the siege and defense of Goražde with a focus on the crimes committed, which will be published in the form of a scientific monograph in two or three years.
